Please Pablito, could you set aside your personal polemics for a while? The first parts of your presentation of Visocica and its history were perfectly correct, but now we come to more disputable claims, and I'll try to complete or correct the informations you gave just above.
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Riprendendo il racconto, come dicevo poco sopra, abbiamo iniziato uno studio antropologico incontrando varie autorità morali della zona di Visoko per conoscere la memoria storica non compresa nei documenti ufficiali, cosa assolutamente necessaria per uno studio antropologico corretto, ed abbiamo fatto parecchie scoperte. [...] la collina di Visoćica ci ha stupito per il numero di storie, leggende e miti connessi ad essa.
Of course such a study of local and oral knowledge is useful, but I think you have to be very cautious of what anthropologists call "pizza effect" (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_effect : "The pizza effect is a term used especially in religious studies and sociology for a wide-ranging phenomenon, for instance the process by which cultural exports are transformed and reimported to their culture of origin, or the way in which a community's self-understanding is influenced by (or imposed by, or imported from) foreign sources."). This effect has been identified for example in the case of Maya elders babbling about 2012 and crystal skulls, see in this interview with John Hoopes
http://boingboing.net/2011/08/13/the-annot...ackle-2012.html. In the case of the Bosnian "pyramids", I think that the "pizza effect" has been noticeable already a few months after the first public claims by Osmanagic in 2005. After his intense promotionnal campaign at the end of 2005 and the beginning of 2006, more and more locals began to "remember" various strange things about the "pyramid", the tunnels, and so on. The fact that there are local legends about Visocica is not surprising, there always are such legends around ruined castles (underground passages, hidden treasure and so on); Osmanagic and his team added much to this substrate, merely by the questions they asked and the articles they published in the local media, so that you have to be aware of this and not take these legends at face value. For example I'm not really surprised that some people claim to have "known" before Osmanagić ("le persone che abbiamo incontrato c’era perfino chi faceva a gara per dichiarare che era stato il primo a informarlo e a spingerlo a creare quello che ha creato") and I would take that with quite a grain of salt.
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Certo è curioso che si pongano proprio in quella scomoda posizione molto lontana dai centri abitati per una festa così importante.
Hum, given the still prevalent anti-gypsy racism in Bosnia, I do not find this as surprising as you do.
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Un altro importante tassello ci fu fornito da un’autorità religiosa che ci informò che sulla cima della collina nella cosiddetta cittadella medievale di Visoki vi era stato piuttosto un centro spirituale e di conservazione della cultura similmente ad altri centri medievali in Europa piuttosto che una sinistra fortezza indice del potere del re.
Can you name your source, this religious personnality? For the "spiritual and cultural center" in Visoko, see below.
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Lì per lì non abbiamo dato molto peso a questo aspetto di spiritualità legato al luogo, ma ne abbiamo avuto conferma successivamente da un collaboratore del direttore del museo di Visoko che ci ha detto che la ricostruzione del cosiddetto castello presente nel suo museo, e visibile anche su Wikipedia (
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com...soki_maketa.png), era di pura fantasia ed anche le mappe tanto spesso esibite non corrispondono alla realtà dei fatti.
Again, can you name your source? Not that I contest this fact; the model you show was made before the recent excavations in Visoki, and it's probably not very accurate. It's to be hoped that a better one will be made available. Did you meet the team of archaeologists who made the excavation and restauration project in 2008/2009? They could surely show you an updated plan of the citadel.
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Anche perchè fortemente in contrasto con quanto riferiteci da un'autorità religiosa che incontrammo a Visoko nel 2011.
If you rely on this person as a source, it would be interesting to give his name.
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In effetti lo storico P. Anđelić citato anche nel decreto nel capitolo “informazioni storiche” parla della presenza di una sede dell’arcivescovado bosniaco nella seconda metà del 11° secolo quando questo era dipendente da Spalato. Sede non individuta nell'abitato di Visoko che era la capitale del regno. D’altra parte lo stesso Anđelić parla della necessità di una sede ecclesiastica duratura per fama e importanza, mentre l’agglomerato urbano si era sviluppato più in basso dove l’acqua del fiume Bosna non mancava, al contrario che in cima alla collina di Visoćica.
Sorry for the long quote, but the exact text is this:
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P. Anđelić (1984, 105) hypothesized that there was a settlement on the site of present-day Visoko or somewhere in the Visoko plain, and a smaller territorial and political unit named Bosna in early mediaeval times, i.e. from the 10th to the 12th century, when the region around Visoko was the geographical and economic centre of inner Bosnia. Since the political capital of the state was located here during the reign of Ban Kulin and later in the 14th century, there are «no reasons to believe that in the early mediaeval period the same held good in the formation of the political centre in the most favourable geographical and economic conditions.» In a census by the suffragan of the Split Archbishopric dating from the second half of the 11th century there is reference to the Bosnian bishopric and its see, «civitas Bosna», and as is known it was a lasting rule of ecclesiastical organization for bishops to have a permanent see in a settlement that «must not be insignificant.» As a result, from the founding of the Bosnian bishopric until 1234 and the appointment of Bishop Ivan, the see of the Bosnian bishopric was in inner Bosnia, in the immediate vicinity of Visoko (P. Anđelić,, 1984, 124, 127-128). There is evidence dating from the later mediaeval period that the elders of the diocesan church hierarchy, as well as high dignitaries of the Bosnian church, had their permanent see in the environs of Visoko (P. Anđelić, 1984, 105-106, and nn 1-10). In the late 12th century, a church was built in nearby Biskupići, of which the founder was Ban Kulin (Anđelić 1984, 127). Later, in the first half of the 14th century, there was a house (hiža) of the Bosnian Church in nearby Moštre, where “all the Bosnian Church”, i.e. all its leading figures, conducted their public affairs (P. Anđelić, 1984, 125).
So the seat of the bishopric was "somewhere in the Visoko plain", "in the environs of Visoko". The historical and archaeological evidence point to the locality of Moštre, where we know that there was a "Christian House" ("kuća krstjana") of the Bosnian Church, where several documents concerning religious affairs were written, and where was probably located the "University of Bosna", one of the oldest universities in Europe (see
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache...oqFMNxse9TuCraQ page 24). The word "Bosna" seems to have had more significations in the Middle Ages: one, larger, pertaining to the Bosnian state, one pertaining to the smaller region of the Bosna župa, and one to the place "Bosna", that is the Visoko valley, comprehending the Visoki "grad" (the citadel and its town), Podvisoki (below Visoki, that is the present Visoko) and other localities like Moštre, Mile, Biskupići and so on (more on this below). I do not think Anđelić ever imagined that the seat of the bishopric was on Visocica.
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Lo stesso decreto della Commissione per la Conservazione dei Monumenti cita più in basso che le prove documentali dimostrano che l’importanza politica dell’insediamento di Visoki superava di gran lunga le sue capacità di difesa e solo a volte è servito come residenza ufficiale del sovrano.
Yes, as most of the medieval kings, the Bosnian kings were kind of nomads, as shown by the fact that we have documents signed by the kings in various places : Visoki ("in castro nostro Visoka vocatum", "na Visokom"), but also Podvisoki ("pod gradom Visoki", "pod Visokim"), Biskupići where was found the famous Kulin Ban plate...
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Quindi è ipotizzabile che l’insediamento di Visoki aveva più una funzione morale come quello di un'abbazia che di mero apparato di difesa. E lo stesso Anđelić non nasconde che Visoki fu uno dei più antichi agglomerati nel Bosnia medievale.
But you cannot hypothesize a "moral function" of Visoki on the ground that the seat of the bishop was in Moštre, that's not the same place! And Anđelić said that:
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P. Anđelić (1984, 105) hypothesized that there was a settlement on the site of present-day Visoko or somewhere in the Visoko plain, and a smaller territorial and political unit named Bosna in early mediaeval times, i.e. from the 10th to the 12th century, when the region around Visoko was the geographical and economic centre of inner Bosnia. [...] In the Visoko plain at that time there was the Ban’s, later Royal Court in Moštre and houses of krstjani (members of the Bosnian Church), a place for holding assemblies and a Franciscan monastery, and later the coronation church of the Bosnian kings in Mile, from 1377 to 1461. [...] The basic politial function of the Visoki fort was as the administrative centre of the territorial political unit known as Bosna [...]. Below the Visoki fort, as time passed, a township took shape, “one of the oldest and most typical urban agglomerations in mediaeval Bosnia” (Anđelić, 1984, 184).
So the "old urban agglomeration" was
below the Visoki fort, not on the summit of Visocica; the medieval political, administrative, spiritual, cultural "center" was not Visoki itself, but the whole "Bosna", that is this little territorial unit of the Visoko valley.
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Da qui ad ammettere che l’autorità religiosa da noi consultata aveva ragione e vi era stata la presenza di un monastero o di una abbazia o comunque di un centro religioso il passo è molto breve.
Are you sure that this "religious authority" did not mingle Visoki with Moštre, or maybe Mile, where there was a Franciscan monastery?
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Quindi molto probabilmente in cima alla vetta della collina di Visoćica esisteva anche un centro spirituale-ecclesiastico che ha dato maggior peso e avvallato le decisioni dei sovrani bosniaci, che talora hanno scelto questa sede per la loro incoronazione.
As far as I know, the Bosnian kings were not coronated in Visoki, but rather in Mile (present Arnautovići), see here:
www.kons.gov.ba/main.php?mod=spomen...&lang=4&id=1341If you have evidence of a coronation in the Visoki citadel, could you provide it?
From what I can see, unless you provide other evidence, you seem to be trying to attach to the Visoki fortress, that is to the hill of Visocica, elements that come from other sites, sometimes several kilometers from the hill.
Here is the Google map of Visoko, where you can see the hill with the fortress ("Grad"), Biskupići, Arnautovići/Mile, Moštre...
As far as I know, you didn't measure any particular EM emission nor ultra- or infrasound in all these places, did you? But if there are "sacred places" in Visoko valley, it would rather be in Moštre or Mile.
Irna
Edited by Irna - 22/6/2013, 20:53
